PvE vs PvP Discussion

[Zeros]

We are still not 100% sure about what type of server we will be creating the guild on, whether PvE, PvP, or RP-PvP. I want to make this post to discuss and give feedback on what type of server YOU want to see us roll and why.

Here are my reasons for choosing PvP copy pasted from another discussion:

"For me it is all about having the choice to kill someone or not as well as the danger of it. Ganking does not bother me much, even if I do bitch about it happening. Even camping doesn't bother me too much because there is almost always a way to get away. I like FFA PvP because it is an unpredictable element in games of pretty consistent predicatability. Sure there are areas designated for PvPing and thats all good and well but when I run across someone whose been being an asshole or talking shit or I just don't like... I like having the option to fight them right then and there. I may not be a hardcore PvPer, but I like having the option to be one at any time. I don't think that makes me an asshole but those are my reasons."

I am not doing this in poll format because I want this to be DISCUSSED and thought out first. If I made it a poll people would vote before ever reading and they may want to change their mind. Remember opinions are just opinions and everyone has their own.

[ones]

We're still not sure? Well wtf, I'll make it really simple then, let's go do pvp.

Really, I'm excited to try out an open-ruleset pvp server after so long doing WoW's faction-based pvp. PvE is great for not getting ganked, but in the long term, PvE servers suffer from not having any real player rivalry, nor do you get nearly as much satisfaction taking away some guild's city if their players haven't ganked you then and again.

[nevs]

Here are some postson the AoC forums that make me pretty weary.. I am concerned about the lack of population and having to invest a huge amount of time leveling

I've played MMOS since Meridian 59 and UO. Since the PvP beta began, I've seen a lot of stupidity posted on this board about PvP. The sheer ignorance puzzled me until I remembered: 95% of people here haven't learned the lessons of past MMOs, because they were 3-5 years old when those lessons were first 10 years ago. So, here are some hard truths:

1. "FFA PvP won't be like that at release, because people will care about their reputation."
STATUS: False. I've seen message board children saying this in every FFA PvP environment I've ever been a part of. Ganking will be as bad, or worse, as it is now. This mythical "reputation" means jack as the pks are either in a guild or stealthed 95% of the time.

2. "Player policing works and will stop ganking."
STATUS: False. Antipks never have the time or energy to stop the pks 100% of the time. This is because they, at some point, have to go to bed for work. Whereas the pks will merely call in sick to their homeroom teacher. Play from about 11AM to 3 P.M.- Pks will either fall asleep at 11AM after a hard night, or be in school until three.

3. "Three months after release, the FFA servers will be almost completely depopulated."
STATUS: True. This was true of Rallos Zek in EQ, Siege in UO (post-Tram), Mordred/Andred in DAoC. You know how some here keep saying FFA is awesome? If its so awesome, why aren't the FFAers still playing those games/servers I mentioned? Answer: they drove everyone else away, and only a couple hundred gankers remained. The very fact they keep migrating shows the inherent unsustainability of their way of life.

I realize its unreasonable for you to have learned the lessons of games that flourished when you were watching Blue's Clues. But if I've helped even ONE of you cut through the BS like #1 and #2 and disbelieve it, I've done my job.

Another Post on the AoC forum.

Why I will choose ( since, you know, no one has actually chose a server yet ) PvE over PVP:

1.) I enjoy the cooperative, raiding aspects of MMOs. If I wanted to play by myself, I'd load up a single-player RPG. If I wanted to just kill people all day I've load up a FPS like Halo or CoD.
2.) I have responsibility outside the game which will limit my time to maybe 10-15 hours a week. Most people who will be on summer break ( funny how the game is being released just about the start of summer ) will spend 10-15 hours per day. I can't and won't try to keep up with that and it will put me at a disadvantage since I will be out leveled and out numbered.
3.) I can't justify spending $15 a month to get upset and aggravated because someone else enjoys spawn camping me. If it's my money, then I will play a game in a fashion that I can enjoy, at my pace, doing what I want to do.
4.) I like PvP, but only when I want to partake in it. Having that option is essential to me. People have been whining for the past 2 days about how 'limited' a RP-PvE server would be and how you wouldn't have the 'option' to fight. On a FFA-PvP server you don't have the 'option' to not fight. Isn't that just as limited? And don't tell me that there are safe spots; sitting in town all day won't allow me to enjoy the game the way I want to enjoy it.

I wish you luck on your server. I've played MMOs since UO. I can handle FFA-PvP, but I don't think it's worth the frustration when you end up wasting even an hour of your time a week dealing with immature players.

[ones]

K, well I already discussed this with you over vent but I'll put my rebuttals here so that there's a record for everyone else to read (I'm much better at typing than speaking anyways)

1. "FFA PvP won't be like that at release, because people will care about their reputation."
STATUS: False. I've seen message board children saying this in every FFA PvP environment I've ever been a part of. Ganking will be as bad, or worse, as it is now. This mythical "reputation" means jack as the pks are either in a guild or stealthed 95% of the time.

This is ironic, because in this guy's refuting of the quote's argument, he makes the same mistake in assuming that AoC will have the same problems as previous FFA mmos. He isn't taking into account that most of those earlier games didn't have the pvpminigame/battlegrounds that AoC will have (just look at the utter destruction of WoW's pvp to see how effective BGs were at turning off gankers). They don't take into account that there are the Border Kingdoms, which will turn away a huge chunk of players who enjoy world pvp into an instance that is designed for world pvp. So we have two contributing factors: battlegrounds and specially-designed pvp areas; which give good rewards and grant a higher amount of PXP than ganking does. Already, a huge chunk of gankers are going to be swayed away from the mindless gank-camping that took place in Lineage and UO.

2. "Player policing works and will stop ganking."
STATUS: False. Antipks never have the time or energy to stop the pks 100% of the time. This is because they, at some point, have to go to bed for work. Whereas the pks will merely call in sick to their homeroom teacher. Play from about 11AM to 3 P.M.- Pks will either fall asleep at 11AM after a hard night, or be in school until three.

This is irrelevant in AoC. Every single zone in AoC is instanced with a player cap. Players are able to /instanceselection to any instance of that zone that they want when they are out of combat (so people aren't screwed out of playing with their friends) to avoid heavy duty gank-campers.

3. "Three months after release, the FFA servers will be almost completely depopulated."
STATUS: True. This was true of Rallos Zek in EQ, Siege in UO (post-Tram), Mordred/Andred in DAoC. You know how some here keep saying FFA is awesome? If its so awesome, why aren't the FFAers still playing those games/servers I mentioned? Answer: they drove everyone else away, and only a couple hundred gankers remained. The very fact they keep migrating shows the inherent unsustainability of their way of life.

People leave a server because they are frustrated with ganking. As WoW has shown, ganking becomes vastly diminished with instanced battlegrounds. The world PvP crowd also will be away in their own border kingdom instances. These leave the grinding/xping/farming zones far more free than they were in other FFA-PvP games. In addition to that, players can STILL get away from gankers just by going to another instance of the same zone, and they still have the option of farming in other zones (though this depends on Funcom and how many farming zones they implement). With the extreme displacement of potential gankers into pvp designed areas, there will be far less ganking and the feared depopulation due to frustration should not happen.

[rock]

Anyone who has an opinion on this please post.

[Banes]

I would really like to start out on a PvP server. Personally i like to randomly go around and start some world pvp here and there. Also as we were talking about over vent. it be much safer to start out on a PvP server and then go to a PvE server if we really had to then visa versa. imagine hating the pve servers and having to grind all 80 lvls on a pvp server...

[oghtapea]

I would have to agree with banes i think we should start on a pvp server. If one of the main points of the guild is to pvp then why go to a pve server.

[nevs]

May 13, 2008 0:34:44 GMT -5 oghtapea said:

I would have to agree with banes i think we should start on a pvp server. If one of the main points of the guild is to pvp then why go to a pve server.

The server title is a bit misleading. This is not WoW PvP this is FFA. Everyone is more inclined to kill you than help you.. Everyone.. Even your guildies..

That being said, the guilds PvP can still be done on a PvE server. The mini-games are something like wow BGs. The Borderlands is a huge endgame for PvP where whole guilds try to hold keeps and towers in a FFA zone.

BTW, are you always going to be able to talk to your attackers? I mean can someone beg you to stop?


So here is my own PvE server arguement.
Since all PvP endgame is in a FFA PvP zone, the only people not in the FFA Borderlands or the minigames will be the gankers who cannot compete on equal footing with their opponents.
It will be impossible to anti-gank since all gankers will have stealth.
The resulting FFA enviroment will cause that servers population to take longer to level that other servers and get to the huge PvP warfare in the border lands later. It will also probably temper the HUGE fights in the FFA Borderlands, since it will not be anything different than the rest of the server. So only huge guilds will go there to fight and no one else.
The only advantage I currently see to the PvP FFA server is this sense of excitation or fear, that while you are out fighting PvE mobs while trying to level or quest or farm and not wanting to PVvP, someone will just kill you randomly.

Personally, I got very sick of gankers in WoW. And having just leveled another char in 2 weeks before I left that game last summer, 3 years after the release of it, I can tell you that they were till abundant and wasted a significant % of my time. I no longer want to waste time avoiding gankers. I want to use my time in the game (which I am paying for) to compete is full on PvP where stragety, coordination and team work are used. Or if not PvPing build up my characters strength in PvE to do more PvPing.
That is the real reason for PvE on a MMO anyways. Build up your character to show off to other players, and what better way to do that then smash their face in. The only problem is that when you got 5% life because you are about to succeed in killing a difficult mob and someone ganks you, it doesn't matter wtf your Gear, Experience, or skill in the game was. You are dead. And if that is the impression people get they will leave the FFA server.

[isit]

I think Nevs stated my views very well. I am interested in PvP in this game but not in experiencing its negatives such as ganking, spawn or zone camping. This game has a lot of awesome stuff to offer with the PvP zones, keeps and player cities. All of the cool stuff is available and will be active on a PvE server.

So what does going to a PvP server get us thats positive? It will add in ganking and other forms of negative PvP. While they can be enjoyable from time to time I don't think we will be missing anything if they are not around. We also know that historically these types of servers have not fared well both in terms of community nor population. True that may not be the case here but I think that the odds are clearly heavily weighted towards the server failing and we should not ignore that.

Perhaps a good question to ask is what you want from the guild. If your goal is to become successful at endgame content, be it PvP or PvE your going to stand a much better chance on a PvE server. Why? Because all the hardcore players are going to go to the PvP servers. These are not necessary the skilled players but rather the ones that can play 16 hours a day and unless you expect the guild to match that commitment its going to be hard to become one of the big boys on the server.

On the other hand if we move to a PvE server then life will likely be easier. There will be more recruits, a lot of hardcore PvP types already have guilds, there will be more reasonable competition and a greater chance of us being successful. WoW really killed my desire to play a game like it was a second job. I would really like to be a contributing member of this guild and I think that I will stand a much greater chance of doing that on a PvE server.

All in all I think that a PvE server is a better way to go regardless of your goals. There will be a lot of cool and meaningful PvP, the guild will have an easier time being successful and best of all you will be able to actually go and do something on your lunch hour without it turning into a gank fest.

[rock]

Most are rambles, but some make valid points.

forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=91456

[Zeros]

There is definitely enough feedback and concern here for reconsidering what server type we will roll on. I want to discuss it further on vent tonight if anyone can make it on(even if you don't have a mic). We still have a couple days to make our decision but I want to discuss it as much as possible because as Isit stated, it would blow to have to reroll if we don't like our choice.

[rock]

What time will a majority of people be on?

[Tori]

I'll be starting as east coast, but by the end of the month I'll be west coast again... sooo...

west coast time baybeeeeeeeeeee!

[ones]

I guess I'll go ahead and repeat what I said here and on vent since I feel like I've already talked about these concerns and nobody has really offered any counterpoints to them.

Since all PvP endgame is in a FFA PvP zone, the only people not in the FFA Borderlands or the minigames will be the gankers who cannot compete on equal footing with their opponents.

You have to look no further than WoW to see how influential the minigames (battlegrounds) are at deterring a huge amount of potential world pvpers. For those that are left, there is the Border Kingdoms, zones set up and designed specifically for world pvp. You seem to make the argument that people who aren't on equal footing with opponents won't do battlegrounds, but is that really what your personal experience in WoW has told you? Did you really see a huge amount of unskilled people boycott battlegrounds because they weren't skilled enough? No, they didn't because BGs were the best way to get your character pvp gear. The pvp minigames and pvp battlekeeps give THE BEST rewards for doing pvp, something other FFA-PvP games never did. WoW has already shown how effective that method is for deterring world pvp. Why do you think that minigames and battlekeeps aren't going to work for AoC?

It will be impossible to anti-gank since all gankers will have stealth.

It will also be impossible to camp someone because of /instanceselection, as I said earlier. But if you're still worried, every class has a Sprint ability. Just keep your stamina high and you will be able to out-sprint your ganker (and the ganker will have less stamina becuase he's using it to kill you).

The resulting FFA enviroment will cause that servers population to take longer to level that other servers and get to the huge PvP warfare in the border lands later.

In WoW every established PvE server would beat the PvP ones: AQ gate opening, P4 Sunwell unlock. Why does it matter if we don't get to be the first in the world to have a battlekeep? Is that really what we're trying to aim for?

It will also probably temper the HUGE fights in the FFA Borderlands, since it will not be anything different than the rest of the server. So only huge guilds will go there to fight and no one else.

There's still the mercenary system. And there's still the pvp minigames for people who are in smaller guilds. I still fall back on my WoW example of battlegrounds completely ending world pvp to alleviate concerns of this.

The only advantage I currently see to the PvP FFA server is this sense of excitation or fear, that while you are out fighting PvE mobs while trying to level or quest or farm and not wanting to PVvP, someone will just kill you randomly.

People do enjoy this feeling. Honestly I feel that, in the end, it helps me play better. It teaches me to keep myself aware of my surroundings and keeps the end-game from getting stale. Is it just a coincidence that all the best PvE guilds happened to be on PvE servers? People learn to play better on PvP servers because people learn to keep aware of their surroundings, which is just as important in PvE.

Personally, I got very sick of gankers in WoW. And having just leveled another char in 2 weeks before I left that game last summer, 3 years after the release of it, I can tell you that they were till abundant and wasted a significant % of my time. I no longer want to waste time avoiding gankers. I want to use my time in the game (which I am paying for) to compete is full on PvP where stragety, coordination and team work are used. Or if not PvPing build up my characters strength in PvE to do more PvPing.

The truth of the matter is that the big fear of "server depopulation" from ganking will not happen. Those happened only on MMOs where gankers had absolutely nothing else to do pvp-wise. WoW showed to the entire MMO world that battlegrounds are hands down the most effective way to stop pvp ganking. Why? Because the vast majority of people care MUCH MUCH more about advancing their own characters than they do about searching the countryside for 30 minutes trying to find someone to kill. WoW BGs have already proved this. I cannot stress this enough. Not only did Funcom do that but they also have in a whole pvp/battlekeep system in zones specifically designed for pvp.

This fear that ganking will be so incredibly frequent that people will quit is a false assumption based on games with a extremely different pvp structure than AoC has.

[nevs]

Onereez-

In regards to battlegrounds detering PvPers. I am agreeing with you. I believe you misinterpeted my post. What I was saying was that the people who gank others will be the ones not in the borderlands and not in the minigames, because that is not ganking. There is a normalization in those 2 places that does not favor a gank.

In WoW when the battlegrounds came out the only players still around for World PvP were the gankers.

So, I guess I am just confused on your wanting of a PvP server. You are saying that minigames and borderlands are going to all but kill world PvP (like it did in WoW), so why does it matter to you what sort of server we are on?

BTW, does it seem weird to anyone else that someone could fight with you ungroup with you when you are at low health and kill you on the spot?

I am looking for a reason as to why a FFA is worth the trouble that comes with it.

Look at it from my perspective. I like team PvP and team PvE. On a FFA server I see it being difficult to do more team pvp than solo pvp since most of the time it will be 1 on 1s through soloing and ganking. I also think that the PvE focused people will stay away from the FFA servers, even the ones inclined to PvP like me, just because the PvP benefits are already on the normal servers. That makes it harder to find PvE groups for end game content.

It just seems like we would be shooting ourselves in the foot for no palatable reason.

GIVE ME THE REASON!!!